Curse

Mark Nevermiss · Nov 05, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Supposedly Melandru created the world so... there cant have been dragons roaming Tyria before Melandru was there.

Neriandal Freit · Nov 05, 2007, 12:47 PM // 12:47

And here now lay before us our problem ye'Guru folk.

This is where ANet needs to compile all of their lore, iron out the wrinkles and fill in the blanks so we as players can understand.

Guildmaster Cain · Nov 05, 2007, 01:09 PM // 13:09

@Mark: Well I havent seen any evidence of her name being mentioned in the creation of the world of Tyria.

@Freit: Yup, probably Anet uses these forums to keep track of inconsistencies we discover and they can fill these gaps in the Lore in GW2. Something similar happened to Warcraft, that lore has been growing ever since WC1. It is easier (and cheaper) to create a lore that is vague and with gaps, then creating a whole Bible. The rest is filled in with newer chapters. Only the writers of Legacy of Kain managed to create an interesting story-arc for the full series at the first game, with very little or no inconsistencies. Legend of Zelda just incorperates the fact that Link and Zelda are reincarnations of their former selves and thus the storylines never or rarely descend other chapters of the game.

So, if Anet reads these lore posts: HIRE AMY HENNING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is one of the main developers of the Legacy of Kain series which has THE most intriguing story-arcs in game history.

Aubis · Nov 05, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

First their was the Mist then the lore said the gods came out the mist and made the world of Tyria so maybe the dragons were causeing trouble in the Mist and the gods made the world of Tyria to seal up the dragons from the mist. And as time went on life started on tyria so the god started teaching races to fight and use magic to face the unaviodable threat the dragons will become if they awake from their sleep.

KalleDamos · Nov 05, 2007, 07:53 PM // 19:53

While an interesting theory, that dragons being the former gods, it is just a theory. Seeing as abbadon and all the former or half-god siblings of the current gods(that we know of) are in some immaterial relm such as the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Domain of Anguish, etc, then why would the current gods lock up the dragon's on the material worlds where they could do the most harm to the gods creations. Does not make sense to me.

Aubis · Nov 05, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Would u like a being with power equal to u in your house that can wake up any second that what the gods may have been thinking besides the Gods work in strange ways

draxynnic · Nov 06, 2007, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by KalleDamos

While an interesting theory, that dragons being the former gods, it is just a theory. Seeing as abbadon and all the former or half-god siblings of the current gods(that we know of) are in some immaterial relm such as the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Domain of Anguish, etc, then why would the current gods lock up the dragon's on the material worlds where they could do the most harm to the gods creations. Does not make sense to me.

A couple of possibilities:

1) Tyria started as a prison - it was afterwards that they decided it had greater potential, and by then the dragons were already there.

2) They didn't want to risk the like of Abaddon, Dhuum or Menzies setting the primordial dragons loose.

PS Cain, do you have a reference for Abaddon being older than the others?

Guildmaster Cain · Nov 06, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

lol ty Drax ^^
Those are certainly possibilities.

I wonder how the Giganticus Lupicus (Real Giants) fit into this. They are the bones that we can see in the desert, dated by Tyrian scientist to before 10.000 BE. Since Glint was the first creature created by the gods in 1769 BE, they werent created by the gods. So how did they get there? More questions...

Abaddon being the oldest is from the quote that the gods are referred to as 'Abaddon's siblings'. I'm not sure if I remember it correctly tho, so don't regard it as a fact yet. I am sure the gods are called his siblings and he was the oldest of them. I do not know how wide the term sibling can be used (brother can also be a monk, friend or racial connection), but it looks like the gods are all brothers and sisters, or at least half-brothers and half-sisters. We know for a fact Balthazar and Menzies are.
SPECULATION:
I think Balthazar, Menzies, Dhuum, Grenth, Dwayna, Melandru, Lyssa and possibly other siblings (that might have died, or just didnt care about godhood) fought the former Gods/Dragons and took their Divinity from them. Balthazar and Co were from a uniquely strong family that with combined power could overthrow the dragons. But since there were only 6 Divine Dragons, they could only have 6 seats for gods. Some siblings didnt care about godhood, some did. Balthazar and Menzies both volunteered for the seat of God of War, they fought and Balthazar won. Menzies decided to live with it and went to his own corner of FoW. Grenth didnt bother about godhood, but after he saw that his sibling Dhuum was performing a terrible job in 48 BE, he overthrew him. Menzies saw that it was possible to overthrow a brother, so he decided to wage a war with Balthazar again. Up until present he hasnt been able to win yet.
Balthazar and Co are extremely powerfull beings by nature, but they have been enhanced by the Divinity they took from the Dragons, enabling themself to manifest as gods.

Think of it this way: If the Bal&Co-gods had created Glint, why would they create their first creature in the image of the most powerfull beings that walked Tyria? It makes more sense if the Dragon-gods created Tyria from the mists and created the first being in their own image.

But what about the Giganticus Lupicus? :P

angmar_nite · Nov 06, 2007, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Abaddon had a predecessor. You learn in some quest given by a margonite.

KalleDamos · Nov 07, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Yes, we now that, but because from what we can tell from all the current lore, there were 6 gods. One before abbadon, and one before grenth at least. Melandru, Balthazar, Lyssa, and Dwayna may be orignal four. They may be the first, no predicessors. Dhumnn(or however cha spell it) gets booted by Grenth, Abbadon boots the old guy or girl(whomever that was) and take their place, only to become a bit insane, get locked away and replaced with Kormir. Because there is no suggestion to the other gods taking their powers from others, is it not fair to assume they always had them, and are the true gods?

Sure the time line may show their apperances at differnt times, and after everything was created, but would it not be wise to create everything, let it run its course, then step in once and awhile to try to help, only after you see the world you made needs help.

Also, lets not speculate too much and start the rumor of the dragons being the original gods. If I remember right, another thread tried to guess what the great destroyer was. And every single guess was wrong until it was basically announced. So yeah, lets not get stuck on this one idea.

Guildmaster Cain · Nov 08, 2007, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Hey, im never saying my idea was right or anything. Nor should it be the only idea.

This 99% of the whole Lore section is about speculating about known facts and how they fit into the game. Its much like IRL archeology, in which a lot of assumptions and loos theories. And its not uncommon to disprove a theory years later when new evidence surfaces.

The fact is that Glint is the first being created by 'the gods'. But the names of these gods have not been specified. I think if it was Bally&Co, it is weird they would create their first being in the shape of powerfull primordal beings that could ruin the world. So maybe these powerfull primordal beings were the ones that created it and called themselves gods?

Going offtopic: it is not unlikely that gods are just very powerfull beings that are misunderstood as all-powerfull gods by lesser developed beings. Much like gods in the Stargate series.
I think the gods from GW have been slightly derived from Greek Mythology, if that is the case, gods are not eternal beings. Zeus (the head-god we know) was not the first head-god, in fact he was the 3rd or 4th (bit vague bout this). Whenever a new head-god took place, the WHOLE court was replaced, save for a few conspirators that helped the new head-god. The gods before the Zeus-pantheon were called Titans btw, and Zeus was a son of them (making him a Titan as well?). Another anology with greek mythology is that all the gods are siblings, just like the reference made to Abaddon and the other gods.

Free Runner · Nov 08, 2007, 01:34 PM // 13:34

Well from the sound of it the Dragons were on Tyria long before the 6 gods we know now stepped onto it. It would not suprise me at all if they were former gods somewere down the line that had been sealed on a near empty world by a group of gods only for a new batch of gods to come years later to that world and begin to build it to become Tyria.

As to what Glint and Kuunavang have in connection to the Dragons (other than being Dragons themselves of course) i doubt they were created in the image of the Dragons since most of them dont even look like typical Glint clones (Drakkar and Primordus being examples). We'll have to see what role they played in this.

Guildmaster Cain · Nov 09, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Maybe because Glint and Kuunavang are females? There is some fancy term that says males and females of the same race look different, like peacocks i guess. Anyway, we claim our god also created humans in his own image, but there are many different people in the world.

Anyone wonder who the father of Baby Glint is? Or can she make herself pregnant, just like wurms can? (theres another fancy term for this)

Numa Pompilius · Nov 09, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

What about the evil dragon frozen in Drakkar Lake?
It's obviously still alive, and it's, like, three times the size of Glint.

Drakkar, incidentally, means 'dragons' or 'serpents' in Norse.

Guildmaster Cain · Nov 09, 2007, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Suppose you are a god, would you create your minions equally powerfull and the same size?

And the Primordal Dragons are on a totally different powerscale compared to the 'young' dragons Glint and Kuunavang, this was said in some online interview or something. Anyway, I havent seen Drakkar breathing under the ice. But it is one of the evil Primordal Dragons, supposed to wipe most of the Norn out 250 years in the future.

Azael Durge · Nov 09, 2007, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onarik Amrak

Funnily enough, it's not the first time the heroes just walked away from something...

Remember the Sceptor of Orr? I guess we just forgot about it and it disappeared.

Not to mention letting Palawa go on his merry way without so much as a rap on the knuckles.

Azael Durge · Nov 09, 2007, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aubis

I wonder what will have been after when kill 1 of the evil dragons maybe that dragons power tranfers to different dragon

I for one doubt very much that you will be able to kill the dragons, and even if you do kill/over throw them myths/guildwars lore shows that you would either gain said dragons power or somesort of godlike power/title.

draxynnic · Nov 12, 2007, 02:26 AM // 02:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildmaster Cain

Maybe because Glint and Kuunavang are females? There is some fancy term that says males and females of the same race look different, like peacocks i guess.

Sexual dimorphism.

Quote:

Anyone wonder who the father of Baby Glint is? Or can she make herself pregnant, just like wurms can? (theres another fancy term for this)

Parthogenesis.

Rovmis · Nov 12, 2007, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Cain,

About your off-topic branch off on the Greek connection: just given the tendency of fantasy games to base their plot and world off of already created pantheons and myths I think its a definite possibility. I also noticed through this thread that the way the GW pantheon is set up there seems to be an extremely high Dungeons & Dragons influence. Basically, in D&D, there was one god who bestowed divine power onto all these heroic beings. The easiest way for non-Gods to gain power is to get a high enough level and become an avatar of a God (which gives them minor divine powers) and then defeat a more powerful God and "take" their powers. Note the similarities. Just to make it clear though, this is all speculation and I don't have any surefire information to back this up, I'm just noting the similarity. I like this speculation though because Kormir, Grenth and Abaddon are certainly suggestive of it. The taking of Primordus's power for the Asura Gates and such can also be seen as evidence in a way.

Rovmis

KalleDamos · Nov 12, 2007, 03:04 PM // 15:04

You know, this idea just came to me. Why does the back story of the gods have to be finite? Why does there even have to be a backstory? This just leaves room for imagination and making your own thoughts about how the gods came about, why the dragons are there. These gaps in lore may be accidential, but I think it helps to overall by allowing discussion, because this whole discussion about gods would not even be going on without those holes.